Posted by Brian Sorgatz at 12:30 PM
Will left this comment at March 10, 2006 11:19 AM
I disagree with your analysis of Joannides quote. Regardless of a moral argument, what one prefers is what one prefers.
I read his comment as saying that body-alterting surgery actually doesn't represent what the concept of womanhood should stand for. Should our attraction to the opposite sex be based on things done surgically... or is there more to a woman that we should focus our attentions on?
As far as the immense focus on the value of women relating to their sexualized appearance - I find it disturbing, particularly if this sexualized appearance requires surgery for high achievement. There is nothing meritocratic about this. Piercings and tattoos tend to represent belonging within a sub-culture rather than a general statement about women's value as a sexualized being. In this sense I would say that as body modifications go, these are different for their cultural significance.
Of course, I have no plans to read this book and I haven't read the whole section on breast implants... but from what you've shown, I find little to call a tirade. This seems as mostly harmless, if not sloppy writing.
Brian Sorgatz left this comment at March 12, 2006 6:48 PM
Will:
I disagree with your analysis of Joannides quote. Regardless of a moral argument, what one prefers is what one prefers.
If he were expressing mere preference, he surely wouldn’t have said “sheer ridiculousness” or “plastic brains.” I think it’s fair to call such harsh language moralistic.
As far as the immense focus on the value of women relating to their sexualized appearance - I find it disturbing, particularly if this sexualized appearance requires surgery for high achievement. There is nothing meritocratic about this. Piercings and tattoos tend to represent belonging within a sub-culture rather than a general statement about women's value as a sexualized being. In this sense I would say that as body modifications go, these are different for their cultural significance.
We don’t want pure meritocracy here. My teeth are artificially straight because I had braces during my teens. Does this give me an unfair advantage over those with crooked teeth or naturally straight teeth? Does it put intolerable social pressure on others to get their teeth fixed?
I know that your motives are liberal and humane, but I suspect that a woman with implants might find your attitude condescending. She wouldn’t necessarily ascribe the same meaning to them that you do, and I don’t see why your interpretation should be placed above hers. If I recall correctly, the comedian Brett Butler has a stand-up bit about reactions to her implants. In a shrill voice, she impersonates a p.c. feminist telling her that she’s been brainwashed by the patriarchy. In her own voice, she replies, “No, I just wanted big tits.” I’m willing to take her at her word.
JJ left this comment at March 13, 2006 4:52 AM
Fakies aren't as nice as the real thing... but some ladies just want a little help in that area. More power to 'em.
Brian Sorgatz left this comment at March 13, 2006 1:12 PM
JJ,
In the United States, fakies would be more competitive with the real thing if the market for silicone hadn’t been destroyed. The hard, spherical ones that people complain about are actually made of saline, an aesthetically inferior material. Thus the anti-implant mania has made implants ugly in a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Where have I seen vicious circles in public policy like this before? Oh, that’s right: the war on drugs.
Navillus left this comment at November 8, 2006 11:52 AM
People are free to do what they like. I don't think plastiboobs are any different than any other form of body mod. While I don't personally care for them, they actually have a greater social/personal value than piercings or tattoos.
Breast implants can make you more money if you are in a public image field (acting, business, etc). In addition for women who have struggled emotionally with their breast size, it can offer a life changing perspective and self image shift. Piercings and tattoos can't do that.
If you get all that benefit, and your partner get's hot for you to boot, what could possibly be wrong with that?
I guarantee you if they had a penis implant as easy to perform as the boob job, many different tunes would be sung.
Brian Sorgatz left this comment at November 8, 2006 1:04 PM
Thank you, Navillus. I wouldn’t presume to guess the relative personal value of various body modifications for the people who choose them. I seem to remember a Playboy article from the 1990s written by a young woman who went for a navel piercing. The procedure itself was harrowing, but she described an agreeable and profound change in her body image afterwards. If penis-enlargement surgery becomes reasonably safe and effective, I think the political consequences are hard to predict. In December 1996, the Playboy Advisor defended itself against a charge of hypocrisy in these matters:
Q. I was pleased to read your response in August to the man who asked about cosmetic penis enlargement surgery. As you said, the risks to health are not worth the superficial increase in manliness. However, many Playboy models have undergone risky surgery to enlarge their breasts. So on the one hand you tell men to forgo enlargement, and on the other you encourage women to have it. How do you justify this?
—J.C., Memphis, Tennessee
A. To say that Playboy encourages women to get breast implants is like arguing that Food & Wine inspires obesity. What’s more, you’re comparing melons and bananas. Yes, some women have bad experiences with implants, and many try to improve on something that doesn’t need improving. We’ve said before and will say again that a woman should never have breast implants because a lover requests it (he may leave; the boobs stay). As with any surgery, she should also be educated about the risks. But unlike penis enlargements, which have serious and immediate side dangers, there is no evidence that implants cause health problems on the scale claimed in courtrooms.
Ron Amos left this comment at November 9, 2006 10:07 PM
I saw Butler do that routine on TV once... her timing is impeccable.
I don't think I ever laughed as hard, for so long.
ren.kat left this comment at November 11, 2006 1:22 PM
I don't think "plastic brains" indicates anything at all about moral judgments. Seems to me the quote speaks more to the lack of humanity- human-ness, fleshy animal fact of cells and goo and all that's real. Real brains might be more concerned with real flesh and blood and breathing organisms rather than plastic shapes. Nothing moral here- you getting defensive?
Brian Sorgatz left this comment at November 11, 2006 2:10 PM
ren,
You can judge for yourself whether I’m defensive. Rationalizing the double standard on grounds of “lack of humanity” (whatever that is) doesn’t make it any less moralistic. What makes breast implants any less “real” or “human” than a tattoo or body piercing? You remind me of the people who want to criminalize the slaughter of horses for meat—but who never get around to explaining the moral distinction between slaughtering a horse and slaughtering a cow.
ren.kat left this comment at November 12, 2006 4:36 AM
I am every so grateful to you for permission to judge for myself. Cows and Horses? Wow- you've got some stretches in analogies there. It would be intertaining if I were into arguing for the sake of arguing. Wonder if you'd change your tone if you saw the size of my breasts?
ren.kat left this comment at November 12, 2006 6:58 AM
I took the bait- how stupid of me. The fact is you bring up and interesting question when you talk about other kinds of cosmetic enhancements that aren't criticized- the problem is that I couldn't possibly engage in an interesting discussion on the subject because of your reactionary name-calling- this isn't even sophism it's . . . oh no- there I go again. I'll stay away now.
Brian Sorgatz left this comment at November 12, 2006 10:58 AM
ren,
Name-calling? What name did I ever call you—as opposed to your argument?
One Guy left this comment at November 14, 2006 2:59 PM
Everyone's got an opinion. Some women feel better with fake boobs, some think it's degrading. To each her own.
Personally, I love breasts -- real ones. Variety is the spice of life -- large, small, flat, round -- they're all nice. The women behind the breasts are always more important, though. (I hope that's obvious.)
If my significant other had augmented breasts, I wouldn't lover her less, but I would wonder what compelled her to make that choice.
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Will left this comment at March 10, 2006 11:19 AM
JJ left this comment at March 13, 2006 4:52 AM